If you or someone you know is feeling suicidal, please contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 800-273-8255 or go to SpeakingOfSuicide.com/resources for additional resources.
I certainly hope the lawsuits proceed and are successful. Perhaps a precedent could be set against arguments like “we sell bullets but it’s the users fault if they use them for other uses; the bullets certainly are not defective”.
Well, looking that up, the final sentence in the first paragraph, "They may also be held liable for negligent entrustment when they have reason to know a gun is intended for use in a crime." NEGLIGENT ENTRUSTMENT appears apt here. Amazon has to know now that their Sodium Nitrate has been used to commit a .........crime, self-murder, suicide. If we thought of Amazon executives and those they hire as human beings, how would we feel about one of them being unconcerned that they are being an agent of death?
New laws would be required to restrict the sale of such items as sodium nitrite or guns and bullets, and gun use is one of the major suicide methods.
Sodium nitrite sales could likely become regulated, no doubt, but I don't expect to see any sensible laws passed on guns/bullets anytime soon. All of it is tragic. Great report, thanks.
I prefer to think of action against willful assistance to suicide for teens to wake up enough people who care about unnecessary and accidental deaths to start this ball rolling....onto guns and ammunitions purchased for no "good" cause (but for both wholesale murdering or targeted death).
I don’t see how unfettered, unaccountable and impersonal marketplaces can be compatible with healthy society. Amazon has always been a long term bad idea, IMHO. In this special case I’m all for the lawyers bringing down Amazon like a ack of hungry wolves.
Amazon boasts of the amount of products they sell. $$$$. Whether it is a suicide kit or rolls of toilet paper they make money every second of every day. They care about the customer for that one reason: Profit.
Capitalism is a dirty business. My thought is the lawsuits solution will be slow and the lawyers for Amazon will fight harder because they have the funds to do so.
I'm sure everyone reading sees through it, but always worth pointing out that legal liability is not the same as moral responsibility, and Amazon may have been following all currently existing laws, but that does not mean they are not morally responsible. Especially for ignoring the effects of their recommendation algorithm.
Exactly. The argument isn't whether or not the suicide cocktail they sold was, "a nondefective product." If it was, those kids might still be with us and the argument would be moot. The point is that people with suicidal ideation, even if they knew only one key ingredient, were suggested a package of everything needed, including a book on how to suicide, by Amazon's recommendation algorithm. This, including the link for money saving speed, is what is, "unreasonably unsafe."
Since the product has no consumer use, they could simply wall it off to search results from business consumer logins and it would be easily and inexpensively solved. I'm not sure who in their PR department thinks advocating for sales of suicide kits to kids is a great idea.
In any library of 20th century science fiction, a good deal of the themes revolve around machines taking the place of humans, either by destroying them or enslaving them. Sodium Nitrite, according to Amazon, is just fine because it is not "defective." Rather, it is quite effective in completing the act of suicide. Amazon is run by computers and algorithms. The machine sees a teen's suicide as a successful product sale.
So the Amazon lawyers are arguing for a machine. When you are on the slippery slope, do you feel the slide to oblivion? How long will it be before the machines censor criticism about the machine?
Yes! And, all of this is analogous to Fox News deciding to adhere to the LIES from Trump in order to make their product profitable. [And, the lack of any conscience or human empathy can be applied to all of the autocracies we are fighting.]
Humans seem really incapable of easily creating solutions, or engaging in creative conversation about many of our self-induced ethical problems. Our selective approach to death and suicide seems often inadequate and superstition oriented. We spend billions to put up barriers to resist mass migrations of fleeing humans but do nothing to solve the reasons they flee.
I hope more constructive, less emotional conversation around suicide would help those who are struggling in this stressed, crowded, and often indifferent human community.
A quick search for sodium nitrate on AMAZON just now produced these results:
"Featured items you may like"
BOOKS (could not copy and paste pictures of the books)
How to Get the Death You Want: A Practical and Moral Guide Paperback – July 27, 2021
The Poor Man's Guide to an Affordable, Painless Suicide: Stories Paperback – July 26, 2014
Extreme Measures: Finding a Better Path to the End of Life Paperback – August 24, 2021
I don't know what can be done to prevent kids from acquiring sodium nitrate on Amazon but suggesting books to facilitate suicide is surely not the solution.
I would think that at the very least Amazon would change their search algorithms to prevent suggesting books on suicide.
Just because a product is not officially illegal should not mean that a company escapes responsibility for selling it. From this reporting it seems that there is not even a warning attached to the sale of sodium nitrate. Can the FDA get involved in control of this potentially lethal substance? We can’t buy cough syrup without ID but teens can get this no problem? And GOP is spending all its time on fighting “woke” by passing laws outlawing drag shows. Amazon is so big boycotting would have little effect & in a rural area where I am A is many times the best or only source (I try not to use it). Hopefully these lawsuits will be successful but this issue needs to be front page news, replacing more PR for the orange sociopathic mobster, so many more parents become aware of the threat & demand action.
FYI, the number to give people in the US who are feeling suicidal is 988, not that old 800 number. I’ve talked someone down from suicide and, believe me, you want to give people the shortest path to avoiding the act. Spread the word—988 is the easiest way to reach the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. I subscribed just to post this comment.
Happy to do it. I never thought I’d need to help someone stay in this world until I did. Everyone needs to know how to get help fast and 988 is easy enough to remember.
As usual, the two cartel parties' cheerleaders are trying to divert attention from the consequences of their own corrupt party playing keepaway ball of universal healthcare from American citizens. With universal healthcare, depressed teens and red flag gun buyers would have the ready access to mental health care now reserved for those privileged with the financial means. The latter are the ones living in gated communities with the lobbyists who also make sure the rest of America has the best government that dark money and corruption can buy. The party that doesn't care whether your family dies from lack of health care surely does not care whether your family dies from a bullet, a suicide kit, or is made homeless among the half-million citizens bankrupted by hospital bills each year. All the party cares about is their oligarch benefactors keep the money flowing to them. Thank your corrupt cartel party for the corrupt government and converting citizens into a polarized society that is accurately described by the acronym "FUBAR."
I make charcuterie, curing meat using formulations that require sodium nitrate to avoid the growth of fatal bacteria. There are legitimate uses for this product. Whether and how it is possible to regulate in a fashion that would not create an undue burden on those who use the product to avoid illness and possible death,. to prevent its use in causing death, is not clear to me.
Trish - I'm talking about meat preservation. Not cutting meat on a cutting board. The SN is added to the meat that has been ground for making salami or sausage, for instance, to prevent botulism. In products like prosciutto or other long-aged meats, it will be added to the salt applied to the surface to cure the meat before drying and aging. We use tiny amounts, to be sure. And sometimes it isn't needed. But it is a crucial ingredient for the most part. Look up "pink salt" and meat curing. You'll see what I mean.
I'm glad you brought this up, Steven. The concentration of SN in curing salts used for food preservation never exceeds 6%. These salts are dyed pink as an extra safety precaution to avoid confusion with regular salt b/c even in this 6% concentration, they can make somebody very sick. The Sodium Nitrite products at the heart of these lawsuits is 98-99.6% pure SN.
Although not a new story it’s great to see this going to court. Not that I expect much penalty for Amazon, but spreading the info is imperative. Too many kids with access to a family computer and the payment info is conveniently saved. Too many adults who don’t read their email.
Thank you for making me aware of this. I had no idea. I will be sharing this article on my IG account to make others aware. Very likely you have saved lives by covering this issue.
I certainly hope the lawsuits proceed and are successful. Perhaps a precedent could be set against arguments like “we sell bullets but it’s the users fault if they use them for other uses; the bullets certainly are not defective”.
This was my first thought too - if Amazon is held liable, how about gun manufacturer's???
Unfortunately, there is a federal law that protects gun manufacturers from liability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act So you'd have to get Congress to repeal that first.
Well, looking that up, the final sentence in the first paragraph, "They may also be held liable for negligent entrustment when they have reason to know a gun is intended for use in a crime." NEGLIGENT ENTRUSTMENT appears apt here. Amazon has to know now that their Sodium Nitrate has been used to commit a .........crime, self-murder, suicide. If we thought of Amazon executives and those they hire as human beings, how would we feel about one of them being unconcerned that they are being an agent of death?
Thanks for the reminder. I remember that now. True but heartbreaking.
Yes yes a thousand times yes!
New laws would be required to restrict the sale of such items as sodium nitrite or guns and bullets, and gun use is one of the major suicide methods.
Sodium nitrite sales could likely become regulated, no doubt, but I don't expect to see any sensible laws passed on guns/bullets anytime soon. All of it is tragic. Great report, thanks.
"All of it is tragic. Great report, thanks." True words indeed.
I prefer to think of action against willful assistance to suicide for teens to wake up enough people who care about unnecessary and accidental deaths to start this ball rolling....onto guns and ammunitions purchased for no "good" cause (but for both wholesale murdering or targeted death).
I don’t see how unfettered, unaccountable and impersonal marketplaces can be compatible with healthy society. Amazon has always been a long term bad idea, IMHO. In this special case I’m all for the lawyers bringing down Amazon like a ack of hungry wolves.
Amazon boasts of the amount of products they sell. $$$$. Whether it is a suicide kit or rolls of toilet paper they make money every second of every day. They care about the customer for that one reason: Profit.
Capitalism is a dirty business. My thought is the lawsuits solution will be slow and the lawyers for Amazon will fight harder because they have the funds to do so.
My heart is with the families.
I'm sure everyone reading sees through it, but always worth pointing out that legal liability is not the same as moral responsibility, and Amazon may have been following all currently existing laws, but that does not mean they are not morally responsible. Especially for ignoring the effects of their recommendation algorithm.
Exactly. The argument isn't whether or not the suicide cocktail they sold was, "a nondefective product." If it was, those kids might still be with us and the argument would be moot. The point is that people with suicidal ideation, even if they knew only one key ingredient, were suggested a package of everything needed, including a book on how to suicide, by Amazon's recommendation algorithm. This, including the link for money saving speed, is what is, "unreasonably unsafe."
Since the product has no consumer use, they could simply wall it off to search results from business consumer logins and it would be easily and inexpensively solved. I'm not sure who in their PR department thinks advocating for sales of suicide kits to kids is a great idea.
Exactly! That's why I pointed out the phrase "negligent entrustment" in the law that the Amazon lawyers can use to defend these actions.
In any library of 20th century science fiction, a good deal of the themes revolve around machines taking the place of humans, either by destroying them or enslaving them. Sodium Nitrite, according to Amazon, is just fine because it is not "defective." Rather, it is quite effective in completing the act of suicide. Amazon is run by computers and algorithms. The machine sees a teen's suicide as a successful product sale.
So the Amazon lawyers are arguing for a machine. When you are on the slippery slope, do you feel the slide to oblivion? How long will it be before the machines censor criticism about the machine?
Geezus! I got a cold chill when I read this!
Yes! And, all of this is analogous to Fox News deciding to adhere to the LIES from Trump in order to make their product profitable. [And, the lack of any conscience or human empathy can be applied to all of the autocracies we are fighting.]
Not to mention the race to get AI up, running and ubiquitous. I hate to sound like a Luddite but I'm dreading the day SkyNet comes online.
With their disavowal of responsibility for the sale and use of dangerous products on their site, Amazon may just have committed suicide.
Humans seem really incapable of easily creating solutions, or engaging in creative conversation about many of our self-induced ethical problems. Our selective approach to death and suicide seems often inadequate and superstition oriented. We spend billions to put up barriers to resist mass migrations of fleeing humans but do nothing to solve the reasons they flee.
I hope more constructive, less emotional conversation around suicide would help those who are struggling in this stressed, crowded, and often indifferent human community.
A quick search for sodium nitrate on AMAZON just now produced these results:
"Featured items you may like"
BOOKS (could not copy and paste pictures of the books)
How to Get the Death You Want: A Practical and Moral Guide Paperback – July 27, 2021
The Poor Man's Guide to an Affordable, Painless Suicide: Stories Paperback – July 26, 2014
Extreme Measures: Finding a Better Path to the End of Life Paperback – August 24, 2021
I don't know what can be done to prevent kids from acquiring sodium nitrate on Amazon but suggesting books to facilitate suicide is surely not the solution.
I would think that at the very least Amazon would change their search algorithms to prevent suggesting books on suicide.
By the way just clicked on your name, and the motto "Truth and Justice...and the American Way!" was originated by Superman!
A company, founded and run by a man filled with hubris, takes on his personality. It only changes behavior if it costs them money.
Just because a product is not officially illegal should not mean that a company escapes responsibility for selling it. From this reporting it seems that there is not even a warning attached to the sale of sodium nitrate. Can the FDA get involved in control of this potentially lethal substance? We can’t buy cough syrup without ID but teens can get this no problem? And GOP is spending all its time on fighting “woke” by passing laws outlawing drag shows. Amazon is so big boycotting would have little effect & in a rural area where I am A is many times the best or only source (I try not to use it). Hopefully these lawsuits will be successful but this issue needs to be front page news, replacing more PR for the orange sociopathic mobster, so many more parents become aware of the threat & demand action.
FYI, the number to give people in the US who are feeling suicidal is 988, not that old 800 number. I’ve talked someone down from suicide and, believe me, you want to give people the shortest path to avoiding the act. Spread the word—988 is the easiest way to reach the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. I subscribed just to post this comment.
Thank you!
Happy to do it. I never thought I’d need to help someone stay in this world until I did. Everyone needs to know how to get help fast and 988 is easy enough to remember.
As usual, the two cartel parties' cheerleaders are trying to divert attention from the consequences of their own corrupt party playing keepaway ball of universal healthcare from American citizens. With universal healthcare, depressed teens and red flag gun buyers would have the ready access to mental health care now reserved for those privileged with the financial means. The latter are the ones living in gated communities with the lobbyists who also make sure the rest of America has the best government that dark money and corruption can buy. The party that doesn't care whether your family dies from lack of health care surely does not care whether your family dies from a bullet, a suicide kit, or is made homeless among the half-million citizens bankrupted by hospital bills each year. All the party cares about is their oligarch benefactors keep the money flowing to them. Thank your corrupt cartel party for the corrupt government and converting citizens into a polarized society that is accurately described by the acronym "FUBAR."
I make charcuterie, curing meat using formulations that require sodium nitrate to avoid the growth of fatal bacteria. There are legitimate uses for this product. Whether and how it is possible to regulate in a fashion that would not create an undue burden on those who use the product to avoid illness and possible death,. to prevent its use in causing death, is not clear to me.
Steven, you can wipe the board down with bleach. It too can kill the bacteria...
Trish - I'm talking about meat preservation. Not cutting meat on a cutting board. The SN is added to the meat that has been ground for making salami or sausage, for instance, to prevent botulism. In products like prosciutto or other long-aged meats, it will be added to the salt applied to the surface to cure the meat before drying and aging. We use tiny amounts, to be sure. And sometimes it isn't needed. But it is a crucial ingredient for the most part. Look up "pink salt" and meat curing. You'll see what I mean.
I'm glad you brought this up, Steven. The concentration of SN in curing salts used for food preservation never exceeds 6%. These salts are dyed pink as an extra safety precaution to avoid confusion with regular salt b/c even in this 6% concentration, they can make somebody very sick. The Sodium Nitrite products at the heart of these lawsuits is 98-99.6% pure SN.
Thank you for this information--it is relevant to this whole discussion.
Although not a new story it’s great to see this going to court. Not that I expect much penalty for Amazon, but spreading the info is imperative. Too many kids with access to a family computer and the payment info is conveniently saved. Too many adults who don’t read their email.
Horrific. As usual, stellar report, Judd.
Thank you for making me aware of this. I had no idea. I will be sharing this article on my IG account to make others aware. Very likely you have saved lives by covering this issue.