On February 16, the Alabama Supreme Court ruled that frozen embryos are "children," and fertility clinics that destroy frozen embryos could be sued under Alabama's Wrongful Death of a Minor Act. In response, at least three Alabama clinics have stopped offering in-vitro fertilization (IVF) treatments, fearing legal liability. This was both
An embryo = a potential (not actual) child. How hard can that be to grasp? It's like child's play unless your stealthy agenda is actually about something else.
This discussion within Repug circles is not addressing what’s the obvious intention of the new push for the sanctity of life declaration being put forward as a congressional’Act’!!!
Hello? Anybody seeing this clear attempt to make it a national law to completely restrict a woman’s right to choose at any point to not carry forward a pregnancy ?
Let’s not be taken for fools here.
Mike Johnson and his ilk are trying to sneak in a ludicrous bill to completely undermine a woman’s right to choose…ALL WOMENS’RIGHT TO CHOOSE regardless of IVF questions!!!!!
Now we women should scream and not stop until we bring the House down!!!
Now men who support women’s rights and their own rights should be screaming as well!!!!!
Thank you for making that distinction. It has to shouted out loud . Shouted often and spoken softly often. . Even a fetus is for months of gestation NOT a “life in being” . There is no reason to buy into the zealots use of language. Unfortunately this is not a philosophical discussion but an emotional one. The zealots SELL their views like any commercial product. Emotions. Convince the buyer to FEEL the words they use. This must be countered , not with lengthy philosophical arguments but with appeals to the emotion of common sense.
I wish there was more attention given by the media to the fact that the embryos used in IVF are only 6-10 cells!!! For the religious absolutist, that won't make any difference, but for the average person, conferring all human rights on 6-10 cells is not going to make sense.
Yes! There is so much to say about the ludicrous. Attempt to boil the IVF questions down to control and the Christian Crazy types who simply want control as you say, autocrats!
Let them have their opinions…just don’t stuff them down our throats!
Since the original case was about getting money from the hospital using this as a definition, the people don't care. The Republican party has no convictions other than they want to get power and money. I am going to see where this goes, because like DeSantis taking on Disney, the story is not over with the first court battle. I hope that this leads to us getting rid of the people in power who use the Supreme court to make policy.
Only a very narrow strip of far right wing evangelicals believe that life begins at conception. All of this bullshit is nothing more than an attempt to impose that far right wing, and frankly blasphemous, version of something its adherents mislabel as Christianity on the rest of us. It is a clear violation of the First Amendment. It is a clear violation of 250 years of American jurisprudence, legislation and tradition. And it is absolutely what Donald Trump and his co-conspirators will force should they manage to steal the 2024 election.
Another phony issue from the GOP to solve a problem that doesn’t exist. Pretending to legislate in order to “protect children” is how GOP legislators rile up the rubes & prevent them from seeing the reality, which is that they are accomplishing nothing for the benefit of the average citizen. Meanwhile, they are supporting a serial rapist & potential fascist dictator who wants to implement forced birth, fake Christianism & more tax cuts for the Uber-wealthy while seeking revenge for wrongs committed only in his warped & demented perception. VOTE, VOTE, VOTE, VOTE, VOTE!!! Before they take your vote away to “protect the children”.
Kevin! I can hear your frustration on this…. What you say is all true. We all need to take a communal breath, see our way to finding a way to stop the madness and move forward.
These people can’t have it both ways. They can’t punish people who don’t want to remain pregnant (or become pregnant again) and not treat these ‘children’ like any full-fledged person. If it’s a person, then it is a whole person with all the rights of a person, not just the ones that support your ridiculous theocratic posturing.
If we are going to call fertilized eggs ‘children’, that Child Tax Credit needs to apply every time you get a positive pregnancy test, every single time— change the tax codes. Child support applies from the moment of conception, as does WIC and any increased benefits. After all, they want to take care of those future children, right? The fees for embryo storage should be classed as childcare and you should be able to use your daycare spending account on it. Life insurance should pay out every time an embryo is nonviable, whether IVF or otherwise. IVF centers should be reclassified as group homes. If these are actual people, all the rights and benefits of parenting an actual child should be available to the parents.
That Texas Corrections Officer who miscarried due to her employer’s actions should be able to collect from her employer as if that fetus was a child they caused the negligent death of. If destroying frozen embryos or having a miscarriage is a criminal offense, that only makes sense—right?!
Because this is all about protecting children. It isn’t about theocracy, or punishing women, or restricting the rights of individuals to control their own bodies. Right? These changes should be easy to make. They are logical and right under the circumstances. So our prolife government watchdogs should be devoting all their time to making these changes. For the children.
Right now the issue at hand is a lawsuit proceeding against a clinic or lab where an accident led to the destruction of some frozen embryos. This ruling allows a lawsuit against it for “wrongful death of minor children.”
Yeah, I know. They are either children in every sense, or they are simply frozen tissue with the potential to turn into children under very specific circumstances. To legislate/rule any other way is nonsensical. Either they are children or they aren’t.
Yes, and the ruling is another step in establishing that they are. States have had laws for years that allowed charges if a pregnant woman miscarried or was killed and the fetus did not survive. For instance fetal homicide laws. As you might imagine RTL tracks them. https://www.nrlc.org/federal/unbornvictims/statehomicidelaws092302/
Legislators around the country are proposing tax breaks and child support during pregnancy. It will take a while to catch on. I suspect if they eventually pass, women may be afraid to use them because of what could happen if they miscarry.
As usual Republicans are promoting something they do not actually KNOW anything about. This is the process of how cults (such as the bizarre QAnon) operate. The unique particulars they would argue vehemently to defend encourages all trying to understand this belief system to feel an admonition to let someone else do their thinking, ignore their intuition, and be out of touch with their own Higher Wisdom.
It would be wonderful if those who support Alabama's laws about life beginning at conception cared as much about children after they are born. I am the parent of a 45 year old son who has significant developmental disabilities. He will need support for the rest of his life from governmental programs, all of them funded by Medicaid. Like all other such parents, I spend all of my free time doing what I can to make sure that funding continues long after I am gone. Judd -- a topic for another essay. How many of those lawmakers supporting IVF also supported overturning Obamacare and cutting funding for Medicaid? And how about their views on other marginalized people like Nex Benedict. Didn't she have a right to life after she was born? Apparently, every life is precious except if the person who results isn't like those making the laws in Alabama.
See how Republicans are moving rapidly to a total abortion ban with this infographic from overturning Roe v Wade, blocking travel out of state, banning abortion pills and criminalizing IVF.
I'm so tired of people saying Adam Kinzinger is a good guy. He retired because he didn't want to go against his good friend, Darin LaHood. Kinzinger was my state rep, now I have LaHood. You'll notice LaHood voted to ban IVF.
Also, I didn't realize the G in GOP stood for God.
The goal is to keep up the number of low paid workers. That increases profits. And that increases the wealth of the rich. (The rich have no problem obtaining abortions or any other health care for their chattel women). Black and brown babies will continue to be gerrymandered into oblivion, and white ones will spread white Christian nationalism into the distant future, without which the Republicans would never win an election. Always follow the money.
Most of the frozen embryos will never be used. After step one in these laws, I dare say will come step two. Parental rights will be part of the medical contract. If the genetic parents do not use them under death or divorce etc, "These embryos deserve a right to be born!" They will be confiscated and implanted into surrogates and paid for by the wealthy infertile. The spin, not as trafficking, but as God's will.
Fertility is waning across the world. Those embryos will be a commodity.
They'll just declare that the frozen non-white embryos died of natural causes and the frozen white ones didn't. Lies are true when spoken by Repbulicans.
I don’t know about anyone else - just speaking for me - but all of this stems from this originalism BS; that law comes from our 1700s Constitution and earlier British common law. The genius of the Constitution is that it can be changed. And it was written by white, property and slave owning men. To not consider where we are now; that we have weapons of mass destruction in the hands of people; that IVF and stem cells exist; that all Americans of age can vote; and so many other things, is patently ridiculous. And we’re letting elected, nominated and wealthy white men bring this country backwards. And not only backwards, but having these people pick and choose what everyone should believe. It’s insane. And happening right in front of us.
There is nothing in the Constitution to defend this. In the absence of anything about the beginning of life Dobbs allows states to define it. Alito stretched, mutilated and manipulated history and common law to open the door to this. He ignored some obvious contradictions.
This is a back door attack on the LBQG community, among other things. Personally, I am too old for any of this stuff, but as I support adoption for people who can't conceive their own, I am not particularly sympathetic to this cause. I consider the idea that one must have a child with their own genes to be social propaganda, not science.
How do these idiots explain twins?! If an embryo is a full person then is a twin (an embryo that splits) a split soul? I guess they don’t have to have logic and reason as long as they get to be cruel and stupid. Thank you for pointing out the GOPS inconsistency and bullshit as always, while the MSM just accepts GOP statements and framing with credulity.
The will of God is expressed in mysterious ways that man was not meant to understand for if he had been designed to do so by God then he would be able to do so and the fact that he cannot is proof of God's intent!
Whew! I typed that all with zero commas in one fast go. Now I'll need to lay down.
and republicans seem so certain that they know exactly what that will is that they're willing to force child rape victims to give birth and bully trans kids....I call that evil, a violation of the first commandment and blasphemous.
I swear I could go full-on "Jesus in the Temple" on those Conversion via Concussion style christians!!! Stand up and tell em, me n Jesus gonna kick yer ---!
1) We learned with Amy CB that these folks will say anything...what they DO is the thing to note; 2) Are they really willing to extend tax credits and exemptions for these "children"? Because let's face it: the government already has a stance on when you have a child
I guess we don't need a uterus then to call dividing cells human life. So how will those cells develop without a woman's uterus? How can that be human life? If live sperm have nowhere to fertilize as an egg is not there to fertilize, have we broken a law? The sperm are alive. Do we want the government in our bedrooms as well as in the doctor's office making our health care decisions for us? This is all so dumb and it looks a lot like a way to oppress women and harm families based on a nationalized religion, which is forbidden by the first amendment. That's how important it is to not have an established religion imposed upon us. The Founders put it in the very first amendment in the bill of rights. We want a bill of rights, right??? It's so hard being a Christian ,watching these folks not follow that good book- no love is involved in this controversy. Jesus would not stone the women. He might tip the tables over tho!
An embryo = a potential (not actual) child. How hard can that be to grasp? It's like child's play unless your stealthy agenda is actually about something else.
Like control.
This discussion within Repug circles is not addressing what’s the obvious intention of the new push for the sanctity of life declaration being put forward as a congressional’Act’!!!
Hello? Anybody seeing this clear attempt to make it a national law to completely restrict a woman’s right to choose at any point to not carry forward a pregnancy ?
Let’s not be taken for fools here.
Mike Johnson and his ilk are trying to sneak in a ludicrous bill to completely undermine a woman’s right to choose…ALL WOMENS’RIGHT TO CHOOSE regardless of IVF questions!!!!!
Now we women should scream and not stop until we bring the House down!!!
Now men who support women’s rights and their own rights should be screaming as well!!!!!
This isn't original with me, but I think it still applies. "If men got pregnant, abortion would be a Sacrament."
Thank you for making that distinction. It has to shouted out loud . Shouted often and spoken softly often. . Even a fetus is for months of gestation NOT a “life in being” . There is no reason to buy into the zealots use of language. Unfortunately this is not a philosophical discussion but an emotional one. The zealots SELL their views like any commercial product. Emotions. Convince the buyer to FEEL the words they use. This must be countered , not with lengthy philosophical arguments but with appeals to the emotion of common sense.
Well said! Thankyou!!!
Indeed. People need to feel this! I'm a man and I felt it immediately because I am also human. Mostly anyway.
Succinctly stated! Control is what those who feel weak (and KNOW they don't KNOW what they are talking about) promote. All autocratic dictators lie.
Yes! This is the problem!
You know the real deal here. This is why I love P.I!
I wish there was more attention given by the media to the fact that the embryos used in IVF are only 6-10 cells!!! For the religious absolutist, that won't make any difference, but for the average person, conferring all human rights on 6-10 cells is not going to make sense.
Yes! There is so much to say about the ludicrous. Attempt to boil the IVF questions down to control and the Christian Crazy types who simply want control as you say, autocrats!
Let them have their opinions…just don’t stuff them down our throats!
Since the original case was about getting money from the hospital using this as a definition, the people don't care. The Republican party has no convictions other than they want to get power and money. I am going to see where this goes, because like DeSantis taking on Disney, the story is not over with the first court battle. I hope that this leads to us getting rid of the people in power who use the Supreme court to make policy.
“I hope that this leads to us getting rid of the people in power who use the Supreme court to make policy.” —if only
Only a very narrow strip of far right wing evangelicals believe that life begins at conception. All of this bullshit is nothing more than an attempt to impose that far right wing, and frankly blasphemous, version of something its adherents mislabel as Christianity on the rest of us. It is a clear violation of the First Amendment. It is a clear violation of 250 years of American jurisprudence, legislation and tradition. And it is absolutely what Donald Trump and his co-conspirators will force should they manage to steal the 2024 election.
Absolutely, Peter, on all your points!
Another phony issue from the GOP to solve a problem that doesn’t exist. Pretending to legislate in order to “protect children” is how GOP legislators rile up the rubes & prevent them from seeing the reality, which is that they are accomplishing nothing for the benefit of the average citizen. Meanwhile, they are supporting a serial rapist & potential fascist dictator who wants to implement forced birth, fake Christianism & more tax cuts for the Uber-wealthy while seeking revenge for wrongs committed only in his warped & demented perception. VOTE, VOTE, VOTE, VOTE, VOTE!!! Before they take your vote away to “protect the children”.
Wow!!! You said it, Man!!! …mislabeled as Christianity! It’s a disease that’s going around!
Vote to show them they can’t win this fight for our rights!
Yes, yes and yes! These supposedly self appointed "good christians."
I learned long ago that self promotion is no guarantee of quality.
Kevin! I can hear your frustration on this…. What you say is all true. We all need to take a communal breath, see our way to finding a way to stop the madness and move forward.
All true and so clear to anyone not blindfolded and lock step with Rumpus!
These people can’t have it both ways. They can’t punish people who don’t want to remain pregnant (or become pregnant again) and not treat these ‘children’ like any full-fledged person. If it’s a person, then it is a whole person with all the rights of a person, not just the ones that support your ridiculous theocratic posturing.
If we are going to call fertilized eggs ‘children’, that Child Tax Credit needs to apply every time you get a positive pregnancy test, every single time— change the tax codes. Child support applies from the moment of conception, as does WIC and any increased benefits. After all, they want to take care of those future children, right? The fees for embryo storage should be classed as childcare and you should be able to use your daycare spending account on it. Life insurance should pay out every time an embryo is nonviable, whether IVF or otherwise. IVF centers should be reclassified as group homes. If these are actual people, all the rights and benefits of parenting an actual child should be available to the parents.
That Texas Corrections Officer who miscarried due to her employer’s actions should be able to collect from her employer as if that fetus was a child they caused the negligent death of. If destroying frozen embryos or having a miscarriage is a criminal offense, that only makes sense—right?!
Because this is all about protecting children. It isn’t about theocracy, or punishing women, or restricting the rights of individuals to control their own bodies. Right? These changes should be easy to make. They are logical and right under the circumstances. So our prolife government watchdogs should be devoting all their time to making these changes. For the children.
You are making a lot of logical points. Thank you for your articulate voice.
LOVE your thinking.
Excellent summary of the problem and of possible solutions! You have a brilliant mind!
I’ll pass it on!!!
Right now the issue at hand is a lawsuit proceeding against a clinic or lab where an accident led to the destruction of some frozen embryos. This ruling allows a lawsuit against it for “wrongful death of minor children.”
Yeah, I know. They are either children in every sense, or they are simply frozen tissue with the potential to turn into children under very specific circumstances. To legislate/rule any other way is nonsensical. Either they are children or they aren’t.
Yes, and the ruling is another step in establishing that they are. States have had laws for years that allowed charges if a pregnant woman miscarried or was killed and the fetus did not survive. For instance fetal homicide laws. As you might imagine RTL tracks them. https://www.nrlc.org/federal/unbornvictims/statehomicidelaws092302/
Legislators around the country are proposing tax breaks and child support during pregnancy. It will take a while to catch on. I suspect if they eventually pass, women may be afraid to use them because of what could happen if they miscarry.
As usual Republicans are promoting something they do not actually KNOW anything about. This is the process of how cults (such as the bizarre QAnon) operate. The unique particulars they would argue vehemently to defend encourages all trying to understand this belief system to feel an admonition to let someone else do their thinking, ignore their intuition, and be out of touch with their own Higher Wisdom.
Love what you are saying and how you are describing this phenomenon!
You saw Tuberville flailing? He is a comparative genius in maga circles.
It would be wonderful if those who support Alabama's laws about life beginning at conception cared as much about children after they are born. I am the parent of a 45 year old son who has significant developmental disabilities. He will need support for the rest of his life from governmental programs, all of them funded by Medicaid. Like all other such parents, I spend all of my free time doing what I can to make sure that funding continues long after I am gone. Judd -- a topic for another essay. How many of those lawmakers supporting IVF also supported overturning Obamacare and cutting funding for Medicaid? And how about their views on other marginalized people like Nex Benedict. Didn't she have a right to life after she was born? Apparently, every life is precious except if the person who results isn't like those making the laws in Alabama.
Check this map of the 125 Republicans and 19 Senators who voted for Life At Conception bills.
https://thedemlabs.org/2024/02/25/map-of-maga-reps-who-voted-to-restrict-ivf-life-at-conception-bill/
See how Republicans are moving rapidly to a total abortion ban with this infographic from overturning Roe v Wade, blocking travel out of state, banning abortion pills and criminalizing IVF.
https://thedemlabs.org/2024/02/22/trump-total-abortion-ban-ivf/
Thank you for providing this info!!!
Time to target THEM and cause them discomfort!
I'm so tired of people saying Adam Kinzinger is a good guy. He retired because he didn't want to go against his good friend, Darin LaHood. Kinzinger was my state rep, now I have LaHood. You'll notice LaHood voted to ban IVF.
Also, I didn't realize the G in GOP stood for God.
A very thoughtful report, Judd. Johnson is creepy. I simply do not understand the obsession with reproduction.
The goal is to keep up the number of low paid workers. That increases profits. And that increases the wealth of the rich. (The rich have no problem obtaining abortions or any other health care for their chattel women). Black and brown babies will continue to be gerrymandered into oblivion, and white ones will spread white Christian nationalism into the distant future, without which the Republicans would never win an election. Always follow the money.
But there is always more.
Most of the frozen embryos will never be used. After step one in these laws, I dare say will come step two. Parental rights will be part of the medical contract. If the genetic parents do not use them under death or divorce etc, "These embryos deserve a right to be born!" They will be confiscated and implanted into surrogates and paid for by the wealthy infertile. The spin, not as trafficking, but as God's will.
Fertility is waning across the world. Those embryos will be a commodity.
Unless they come from people of color, of course. That wouldn’t fit with their white nationalist agenda.
They'll just declare that the frozen non-white embryos died of natural causes and the frozen white ones didn't. Lies are true when spoken by Repbulicans.
So true!
I don’t know about anyone else - just speaking for me - but all of this stems from this originalism BS; that law comes from our 1700s Constitution and earlier British common law. The genius of the Constitution is that it can be changed. And it was written by white, property and slave owning men. To not consider where we are now; that we have weapons of mass destruction in the hands of people; that IVF and stem cells exist; that all Americans of age can vote; and so many other things, is patently ridiculous. And we’re letting elected, nominated and wealthy white men bring this country backwards. And not only backwards, but having these people pick and choose what everyone should believe. It’s insane. And happening right in front of us.
Well, the Earth is flat. Women shouldn’t have any rights. And oof, I just walked into myself on my way backwards…
Next up: Making fire is the work of witchcraft and demons. Discuss.
There is nothing in the Constitution to defend this. In the absence of anything about the beginning of life Dobbs allows states to define it. Alito stretched, mutilated and manipulated history and common law to open the door to this. He ignored some obvious contradictions.
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/1099542962/abortion-ben-franklin-roe-wade-supreme-court-leak#:~:text=Hourly%20News-,Benjamin%20Franklin%20gave%20instructions%20on%20at%2Dhome%20abortions%20in%20a,basic%20as%20mathematics%20and%20writing.
His opinion was roundly criticized by legal experts and historians.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/06/02/alitos-anti-roe-argument-wrong-00036174
This is a back door attack on the LBQG community, among other things. Personally, I am too old for any of this stuff, but as I support adoption for people who can't conceive their own, I am not particularly sympathetic to this cause. I consider the idea that one must have a child with their own genes to be social propaganda, not science.
Amen!
How do these idiots explain twins?! If an embryo is a full person then is a twin (an embryo that splits) a split soul? I guess they don’t have to have logic and reason as long as they get to be cruel and stupid. Thank you for pointing out the GOPS inconsistency and bullshit as always, while the MSM just accepts GOP statements and framing with credulity.
The will of God is expressed in mysterious ways that man was not meant to understand for if he had been designed to do so by God then he would be able to do so and the fact that he cannot is proof of God's intent!
Whew! I typed that all with zero commas in one fast go. Now I'll need to lay down.
and republicans seem so certain that they know exactly what that will is that they're willing to force child rape victims to give birth and bully trans kids....I call that evil, a violation of the first commandment and blasphemous.
I swear I could go full-on "Jesus in the Temple" on those Conversion via Concussion style christians!!! Stand up and tell em, me n Jesus gonna kick yer ---!
Next stop: bye bye birth control.
1) We learned with Amy CB that these folks will say anything...what they DO is the thing to note; 2) Are they really willing to extend tax credits and exemptions for these "children"? Because let's face it: the government already has a stance on when you have a child
Good idea!!! Tax credits for all of it, including the cost of maintaining the frozen embryos!!!
Otherwise let them be sold to the highest bidder! Is selling frozen embryos a crime, too? It’s like selling children!!!
Maybe adoption would be a better term?
Though selling children as adoption takes place all over the planet…hmmmm.
Is that Christian?
Embryo trafficking
Every frozen embryo is a dependent. Every annual fee to keep them frozen ($1,000 per embryo) is a deductible medical expense.
I guess we don't need a uterus then to call dividing cells human life. So how will those cells develop without a woman's uterus? How can that be human life? If live sperm have nowhere to fertilize as an egg is not there to fertilize, have we broken a law? The sperm are alive. Do we want the government in our bedrooms as well as in the doctor's office making our health care decisions for us? This is all so dumb and it looks a lot like a way to oppress women and harm families based on a nationalized religion, which is forbidden by the first amendment. That's how important it is to not have an established religion imposed upon us. The Founders put it in the very first amendment in the bill of rights. We want a bill of rights, right??? It's so hard being a Christian ,watching these folks not follow that good book- no love is involved in this controversy. Jesus would not stone the women. He might tip the tables over tho!