As part of an extensive interview with Time Magazine, former President Donald Trump expanded on what abortion access would look like in the United States in a potential second term.
We know that "Trump has still not said what he plans to do." He has never held convictions, he simply wants to find out what will not interfere with the possibility of his winning votes. He demonstrates that he has never really cared for or respected women--even his love for his daughter was based on her sexual appeal. He shows no evidence of caring for anyone but himself. As Joe Biden astutely said, "I'm a grown man, and I'm running against a six year old."
We are now thoroughly aware of SCJOTUS Alito, but who is the weido who wrote up the 2025 Project dictum regarding women and abortion? Minds that come up with this kind of position view human beings as having no spiritual component or wisdom, only value as flesh. That is a deeply fearful view of life.
All women should be so concerned what this means..that these men and some women can send us back to the 1800’s …this is more than abortion rights this is about where we stand in the hierarchy of this country
The Federalist Society, Leonard Leo (who groomed and supported Thomas, Alito, John Roberts etc), was a major player in the development of the plan. Abortion is only one aspect of what would happen with their plan to expand the powers of a president. Expanded executive authority is their goal; minimizing the impact of Congress and limiting our rights are the consequence. A philosophy shared by others like Bill Barr who now voices support for DJT.
Yup. Also, when the Koch Network announced they were going to stop funding Haley’s campaign its political arm (Americans For Prosperity/AFP) told staff they were turning efforts to states for the Senate & House. I suspect most of the $$ (not donations to her campaign) was for its on the ground network of political workers & polling (Americans For Prosperity). Whatever she benefited from would also benefit their other candidates.
That TIME interview should scare the shit out of every American, if not everyone in the world. It's a sure sign that if Trump seizes power, and he surely plans to regardless of the outcome of the election, he will turn the country into a dystopia beyond even the imagination of George Orwell or Margaret Atwood. And everyone of the billionaires who support him in pursuit of tax cuts and deregulation should pause for a moment and think about what will happen when Trump, and/or the American people turn on them. Their gated communities won't save them.
I’ve been wondering if TIME just screwed up by giving him a cover and platform to spread his lunacy even more. I haven’t bought a copy on purpose because he will brag about numbers of copies sold as it is and I won’t add to that number.
Asking someone with no principles where they stand on an issue is a waste of time. He looks at every issue as transactional not a matter of principle. He will answer in a way that he feel benefits him the most.
I agree that it's not a waste of time and I also agree with the implication that Trump doesn't actually "believe" anything except "I believe this will get me elected" or "I believe I'm the most important person on the planet," or in the inner-child sense, "I believe if I say so often enough maybe it will be true and I will finally win my Daddy's approval"
So I wish people would stop saying "Trump believes ______" because, if we're talking about principles and ethics, he has none and so he doesn't.
Not a waste of time. The fact that he does not disavow several things and expresses support for others is enough. Maga land knows what he means and we do too. We also know based on past behavior that the most objectionable things he says he will do are things he will do. Many are things he tried to do but was stymied by the civil service (which he would gut) and maybe not wanting to scuttle his 2nd term chances.
— Whether or not he was kidding about bringing a tyrannical end to our 248-year experiment in democracy, I ask him, Don’t you see why many Americans see such talk of dictatorship as contrary to our most cherished principles? Trump says no. Quite the opposite, he insists. “I think a lot of people like it.” —
They think they are winners also in a similar way fans of particular sports teams will say “we won” as if they were playing as well. It’s why Trump keeps saying the evil Dems are trying to do bad things to THEM, by doing bad things to HIM. And they fall for it.
The point is to get him on record so that people who don’t read journalism like this, but might read Time will really see what’s happening. It’s meant to scare the bejesus out of all of us to get off our butts and vote. I’m hoping that’s the case anyway.
That is understood. But many people that read TIME Are people that may not think about voting. Probably not the Trump clan, but hopefully it’s reaching a wider audience.
I'm thinking that we should buy up copies and leave them around in doctor's offices and other places where people are waiting. BUT, it does not seem to be an actual cover story, so that might not work well. (Or maybe it will be a cover story for an issue coming out in a couple weeks?)
The WEIRD in this BIG. Why did Trump do this? His positions on abortion are politically fatal. Women aren't gonna vote for him. Why now? Why TIME? It's a shell of itself, a zero. Trump is deeply, truely nuts.
I grew up reading TIME, but it's status is a relic of the past, like Trump is. It has that status he's always liked, I'm sure he has complained about not being named Man (now Person) of the Year on more than one occasion.
But, good for TIME for actually getting this interview and promoting it far and wide.
This is not about religious beliefs although there are some extreme nut jobs out there. This is about Republicans desperate to reverse the impending white minority population becoming a white Republican voter minority sooner. It has always been a distant concern but Republicans actually speeded it up by refusing to follow Covid guidelines and ended up with losing a huge number of white people who vote red and they are freaking out that white women have a much lower birth rate now than Hispanic and Black women. So now we have the maniacal forced birthing of women to push women out of careers and back into the home to increase numbers of potential white R voters because women of color statistically have more medical problems with their pregnancies and have more deaths during childbirth than white women. When Republicans entertain the ideas of tracking women’s periods and pregnancies by surveilling and legally forcing women to bear unwanted children, it is not about morals. It is about white Republican power.
If white Republicans are looking to forced birthing as a solution to "The White Replacement Theory," they had better look again. According the Pew Research, minorities have more abortions than whites.
"Looking at abortion rates among those ages 15 to 44, there were 28.6 abortions per 1,000 non-Hispanic Black women in 2021; 12.3 abortions per 1,000 Hispanic women; 6.4 abortions per 1,000 non-Hispanic White women; and 9.2 abortions per 1,000 women of other races, the CDC reported from those same 31 states, D.C. and New York City.
When you own SCOTUS, all options for hate, chaos, and catastrophe are open. With nearly every new "Look at me" sophomoric, gossipy teaser, Trump is challenging Putin, Orban, Lukashenko, for the torch of popular, illiberal, authoritarian demagoguery. And, except for Liz Cheney and a few like-minded Republicans, fascist-loving conservatives will embrace the putrid, immoral messaging defendant Trump.
...and as I've said above. It is in Trump's nature that he will gleefully disappoint and destroy them all in order to prove the HE is superior and doesn't need anyone.
The only funny thing from this article is the fact that Trump always says he'll give you an answer in "two weeks". Wasn't there supposed to re an amazing health care plan in two weeks? I wonder where he learned that two weeks was the magic number to use for anything. I always wished a reporter would call every two weeks and give them an update "you said two weeks, that was 16 weeks ago..."
If he thinks this will keep him out of jail or not pay his massive fines if he is president again he's got a wake up call coming. Throwing us back into the 12th century to garner votes is draconian
He discloses enough in the interview on abortion, using the military against civilians and overturning the Impoundment Act. The Impoundment Act is a Nixon era law that limits the ability of presidents to withhold funding that Congress passed into law. It was another reason he ran into trouble withholding funds from Ukraine & tried to keep it a secret.
Then he denies being serious about being a dictator but (contrary to what the reporter suggests) says a lot of people like the idea. It’s a tell.
Trump praised Christopher Miller’s short stint Defense Secretary when Hewitt asked him in an interview about who he might appoint as Defense Sec. Miller was the one who delayed the request for assistance at the Capitol on Jan 6 supposedly so people wouldn’t think it was a military coup. Then he’d have guys like Kash Patel at the CIA to collaborate with the military.
Sounds good. I would hope the military would refuse unlawful orders no matter who was targeted. I’m not sure that represents all of the military or would carry the day if Donnie appointed a rogue’s gallery to be in charge. It is difficult to disobey orders under a dictator.
Yes. We need reporters to start getting into the details with Trump and his minions of how they plan to implement these surveillance policies. It's easy to write and read that 'the state' or 'lawmakers' are going to monitor 'pregnancies'. But there are actual people behind these abstractions. Not only women who will be followed and threatened. There will also have to be a team of people who do the following, stalking and threat-making, not to mention the physical exams that may be involved. Sure technology can assist, but people are going to be needed to carry out enforcement against their fellow citizens.
I lived in China during the one-child policy and it was a brutal regime that rewarded neighbors for turning on their neighbors. Yes, that was to force abortions, but any government (such as ours) that will force its people to have children, is also capable of forcing them not to. Let that sink in.
I truly hope reporters start to get Trump and those that advocate for these anodyne- sounding 'monitoring' policies on the record with details of the actual steps they plan to use to carry them out. People need to understand the brutality that is coming.
Doesn’t sound too different from “vigilante” or “bounty” provisions to enforce the state laws. TX made headlines but Idaho, Oklahoma also passed them. “In 2023, other states introduced similar bounty hunter-style abortion bans, including Missouri, Virginia, and Kansas.” (According to Center for American Progress.
They’ve been struck down by courts when tested but who knows what the future will bring.
The only way to force mainstream media to report on the truth is to convince people to stop watching the lies and half-truths. Look for small, independent journalists and publications, deprive the oxygen and they'll start talking in order to get their readers and viewers back.
As to how we got here: Margaret Atwood, a brilliant writer and, it turns out, practically prescient, wrote the Handmaid's Tale in 1985. She has been warning people for well over 40 years that this was coming. I watched the signs, and knew the second that my husband told me tRump had won (I thought he was joking!) that he would devastate this country, and I told him, with that cold lump of fear in my stomach, that it would take us decades to undo the damage he would do. I didn't know what form that damage would take, just that it was all but inevitable.
Anyone who is interested in the inside story, what it was like from the perspective of a fan of the democratic system, please read "Here, Right Matters," by Alexander Vindman. It's harrowing, told in spare prose that makes it all the more obvious how horrifying the former president was. "No impulse control" is a description I see a lot, but that barely scratches the surface, and that's when he wasn't yet fully in the grip of dementia.
I feel like this isn't being talked about enough. It is terrifying to have a presidential candidate refuse to disclose their position on abortion in this political climate.
He must feel by crook or rook that voter intimidation and the RNC announcing they will fill election stations with people to look for fraud is going to work. These pretend polls that never expose how many were contacted, demographics, the poll conducted by whom, how the questions are phrased and give results like CBS unleashed last Friday saying he was ahead in swing states is another layer in the process. The public hears this crapola and it has an effect.
MSM media is part of the problem.
How many people subscribe to Time online and by deivery?
So far Heather Cox Richardson and Judd have covered this story that I have seen.(Judd &Co have the better facts. HCR bigger scare factor) Out of 166 million voters in 2020 and scads of millions who did not vote. How many is the Time story hitting?
The Trump trial and college protests are the biggies on video media.
Another good informative article that needs a wider audience. I am heading to XTwitter to retweet. Suggest all on different platforms do the same. Judd is big on Threads, fyi.
This movement to control all aspects of women's lives is being fostered by a relatively small group of mentally delusional people who believe that they alone know all answers to all questions. Although ludicrous on its face, it is possible for this absurd philosophy to prevail unless it is challenged directly and put down by Congress. Hitler was laughed at initially but wasn't put down until it was too late. The fact that something is fascist and hateful does not mean that it can't take hold among misogynists and power mongers.
We know that "Trump has still not said what he plans to do." He has never held convictions, he simply wants to find out what will not interfere with the possibility of his winning votes. He demonstrates that he has never really cared for or respected women--even his love for his daughter was based on her sexual appeal. He shows no evidence of caring for anyone but himself. As Joe Biden astutely said, "I'm a grown man, and I'm running against a six year old."
We are now thoroughly aware of SCJOTUS Alito, but who is the weido who wrote up the 2025 Project dictum regarding women and abortion? Minds that come up with this kind of position view human beings as having no spiritual component or wisdom, only value as flesh. That is a deeply fearful view of life.
All women should be so concerned what this means..that these men and some women can send us back to the 1800’s …this is more than abortion rights this is about where we stand in the hierarchy of this country
The place of women on earth! So, not just America, but in the hierarchy of gaining power everywhere.
The Federalist Society, Leonard Leo (who groomed and supported Thomas, Alito, John Roberts etc), was a major player in the development of the plan. Abortion is only one aspect of what would happen with their plan to expand the powers of a president. Expanded executive authority is their goal; minimizing the impact of Congress and limiting our rights are the consequence. A philosophy shared by others like Bill Barr who now voices support for DJT.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/leonard-leo-koch-networks-pour-120000646.html
This is a great article;
https://michiganadvance.com/2024/01/16/project-2025-if-allowed-will-cement-america-as-a-rightwing-authoritarian-state/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0zqvqDgFUKmU7SI0sMyqE79OXAG54OjD6Cl0hLv6iYms9_o40yzDLqYrE_aem_Ac3bn9QBgLn985e_VCGlI_mDAetyWw7V_PRSfiHeDhcf8FxxB_uiS_NO9zhhqzlueDH6GbW2UONlproLu-6wxREh
Yup. Also, when the Koch Network announced they were going to stop funding Haley’s campaign its political arm (Americans For Prosperity/AFP) told staff they were turning efforts to states for the Senate & House. I suspect most of the $$ (not donations to her campaign) was for its on the ground network of political workers & polling (Americans For Prosperity). Whatever she benefited from would also benefit their other candidates.
https://afpaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/AFPA-3-Ways-to-Win-2.25.24.pdf
Well said especially "only valued as flesh" sent chills down me
That TIME interview should scare the shit out of every American, if not everyone in the world. It's a sure sign that if Trump seizes power, and he surely plans to regardless of the outcome of the election, he will turn the country into a dystopia beyond even the imagination of George Orwell or Margaret Atwood. And everyone of the billionaires who support him in pursuit of tax cuts and deregulation should pause for a moment and think about what will happen when Trump, and/or the American people turn on them. Their gated communities won't save them.
Billionaires have private jets and private physicians, they are literally above the law.
The French aristocracy thought they were above the law too...
There'll be no law to be above IMO
L&B&L
Yeah, but the billionaires can fly anywhere where abortion is legal such as Canada so they know they’re exempt from harm.
Cletus of Tinker's Hollow does not read Time.
Cletus gets his propaganda direct from Fox, Newsmax, OAN and Jethro down by the still...
I’ve been wondering if TIME just screwed up by giving him a cover and platform to spread his lunacy even more. I haven’t bought a copy on purpose because he will brag about numbers of copies sold as it is and I won’t add to that number.
A dollar bill won't stop a bullet. Especially when the lackeys they have to hire to protect them decide to cut and run.
They think they have all or most of the guns and will bring them next time they attempt a coup.
Asking someone with no principles where they stand on an issue is a waste of time. He looks at every issue as transactional not a matter of principle. He will answer in a way that he feel benefits him the most.
I agree that it's not a waste of time and I also agree with the implication that Trump doesn't actually "believe" anything except "I believe this will get me elected" or "I believe I'm the most important person on the planet," or in the inner-child sense, "I believe if I say so often enough maybe it will be true and I will finally win my Daddy's approval"
So I wish people would stop saying "Trump believes ______" because, if we're talking about principles and ethics, he has none and so he doesn't.
Not a waste of time. The fact that he does not disavow several things and expresses support for others is enough. Maga land knows what he means and we do too. We also know based on past behavior that the most objectionable things he says he will do are things he will do. Many are things he tried to do but was stymied by the civil service (which he would gut) and maybe not wanting to scuttle his 2nd term chances.
— Whether or not he was kidding about bringing a tyrannical end to our 248-year experiment in democracy, I ask him, Don’t you see why many Americans see such talk of dictatorship as contrary to our most cherished principles? Trump says no. Quite the opposite, he insists. “I think a lot of people like it.” —
They think they are winners also in a similar way fans of particular sports teams will say “we won” as if they were playing as well. It’s why Trump keeps saying the evil Dems are trying to do bad things to THEM, by doing bad things to HIM. And they fall for it.
The point is to get him on record so that people who don’t read journalism like this, but might read Time will really see what’s happening. It’s meant to scare the bejesus out of all of us to get off our butts and vote. I’m hoping that’s the case anyway.
They don’t read. They only watch Fox and OAN. And I’m guessing you won’t hear much about the Time article on either of them.
That is understood. But many people that read TIME Are people that may not think about voting. Probably not the Trump clan, but hopefully it’s reaching a wider audience.
I'm thinking that we should buy up copies and leave them around in doctor's offices and other places where people are waiting. BUT, it does not seem to be an actual cover story, so that might not work well. (Or maybe it will be a cover story for an issue coming out in a couple weeks?)
Thanks Judd!
Trump is proud of the end of Roe.
Project 2025 is his plan.
He will sign a national ban and Comstock will apply. We know who he is!
Vote Blue in November; lives DO depend on it!
This is why he is going to lose the election hands down.
I so hope you are right! And we need to do everything we individually and collectively can to make it so.
Nice work PI.
Women and the men who love them will save America.
Right on, Ramona! My words, too.
The WEIRD in this BIG. Why did Trump do this? His positions on abortion are politically fatal. Women aren't gonna vote for him. Why now? Why TIME? It's a shell of itself, a zero. Trump is deeply, truely nuts.
I grew up reading TIME, but it's status is a relic of the past, like Trump is. It has that status he's always liked, I'm sure he has complained about not being named Man (now Person) of the Year on more than one occasion.
But, good for TIME for actually getting this interview and promoting it far and wide.
This is not about religious beliefs although there are some extreme nut jobs out there. This is about Republicans desperate to reverse the impending white minority population becoming a white Republican voter minority sooner. It has always been a distant concern but Republicans actually speeded it up by refusing to follow Covid guidelines and ended up with losing a huge number of white people who vote red and they are freaking out that white women have a much lower birth rate now than Hispanic and Black women. So now we have the maniacal forced birthing of women to push women out of careers and back into the home to increase numbers of potential white R voters because women of color statistically have more medical problems with their pregnancies and have more deaths during childbirth than white women. When Republicans entertain the ideas of tracking women’s periods and pregnancies by surveilling and legally forcing women to bear unwanted children, it is not about morals. It is about white Republican power.
If white Republicans are looking to forced birthing as a solution to "The White Replacement Theory," they had better look again. According the Pew Research, minorities have more abortions than whites.
"Looking at abortion rates among those ages 15 to 44, there were 28.6 abortions per 1,000 non-Hispanic Black women in 2021; 12.3 abortions per 1,000 Hispanic women; 6.4 abortions per 1,000 non-Hispanic White women; and 9.2 abortions per 1,000 women of other races, the CDC reported from those same 31 states, D.C. and New York City.
Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/03/25/what-the-data-says-about-abortion-in-the-us/
When you own SCOTUS, all options for hate, chaos, and catastrophe are open. With nearly every new "Look at me" sophomoric, gossipy teaser, Trump is challenging Putin, Orban, Lukashenko, for the torch of popular, illiberal, authoritarian demagoguery. And, except for Liz Cheney and a few like-minded Republicans, fascist-loving conservatives will embrace the putrid, immoral messaging defendant Trump.
...and as I've said above. It is in Trump's nature that he will gleefully disappoint and destroy them all in order to prove the HE is superior and doesn't need anyone.
Yes. Well said.
The only funny thing from this article is the fact that Trump always says he'll give you an answer in "two weeks". Wasn't there supposed to re an amazing health care plan in two weeks? I wonder where he learned that two weeks was the magic number to use for anything. I always wished a reporter would call every two weeks and give them an update "you said two weeks, that was 16 weeks ago..."
If Trump is elected, Project 2025 is just a start. It will set things in motion that can’t be stopped, like a boulder rolling downhill.
Had a much longer, dispiriting, dystopian comment. But decided to not submit it.
If he thinks this will keep him out of jail or not pay his massive fines if he is president again he's got a wake up call coming. Throwing us back into the 12th century to garner votes is draconian
He discloses enough in the interview on abortion, using the military against civilians and overturning the Impoundment Act. The Impoundment Act is a Nixon era law that limits the ability of presidents to withhold funding that Congress passed into law. It was another reason he ran into trouble withholding funds from Ukraine & tried to keep it a secret.
Then he denies being serious about being a dictator but (contrary to what the reporter suggests) says a lot of people like the idea. It’s a tell.
The military will laugh Trump out of office. We aren’t going to hurt ourselves or our families on and off base or abroad…
What if he appointed Mike Flynn to Chair Chiefs of Staff?
Trump praised Christopher Miller’s short stint Defense Secretary when Hewitt asked him in an interview about who he might appoint as Defense Sec. Miller was the one who delayed the request for assistance at the Capitol on Jan 6 supposedly so people wouldn’t think it was a military coup. Then he’d have guys like Kash Patel at the CIA to collaborate with the military.
Sounds good. I would hope the military would refuse unlawful orders no matter who was targeted. I’m not sure that represents all of the military or would carry the day if Donnie appointed a rogue’s gallery to be in charge. It is difficult to disobey orders under a dictator.
How the f did we get here and how to we get out?
Two things struck me: reading this link in the story, (https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/20/politics/abortion-bans-murder-charges-invs/index.html?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email), a CNN article which discusses that the overwhelming lawmakers (90%) who vote against abortions are male.
Pause. Let that sink in, ladies.
Second, that Poland's women are "terrified" after a complete abortion ban replete with surveillance and prison terms for an abortion.
I'm in my 60s but if these draconian anti-woman laws existed when I was coming up, most of my female friends would be felons.
Welcome to the backroom, choose your tool: coat hanger or knitting needle.
Yes. We need reporters to start getting into the details with Trump and his minions of how they plan to implement these surveillance policies. It's easy to write and read that 'the state' or 'lawmakers' are going to monitor 'pregnancies'. But there are actual people behind these abstractions. Not only women who will be followed and threatened. There will also have to be a team of people who do the following, stalking and threat-making, not to mention the physical exams that may be involved. Sure technology can assist, but people are going to be needed to carry out enforcement against their fellow citizens.
I lived in China during the one-child policy and it was a brutal regime that rewarded neighbors for turning on their neighbors. Yes, that was to force abortions, but any government (such as ours) that will force its people to have children, is also capable of forcing them not to. Let that sink in.
I truly hope reporters start to get Trump and those that advocate for these anodyne- sounding 'monitoring' policies on the record with details of the actual steps they plan to use to carry them out. People need to understand the brutality that is coming.
Doesn’t sound too different from “vigilante” or “bounty” provisions to enforce the state laws. TX made headlines but Idaho, Oklahoma also passed them. “In 2023, other states introduced similar bounty hunter-style abortion bans, including Missouri, Virginia, and Kansas.” (According to Center for American Progress.
They’ve been struck down by courts when tested but who knows what the future will bring.
The only way to force mainstream media to report on the truth is to convince people to stop watching the lies and half-truths. Look for small, independent journalists and publications, deprive the oxygen and they'll start talking in order to get their readers and viewers back.
As to how we got here: Margaret Atwood, a brilliant writer and, it turns out, practically prescient, wrote the Handmaid's Tale in 1985. She has been warning people for well over 40 years that this was coming. I watched the signs, and knew the second that my husband told me tRump had won (I thought he was joking!) that he would devastate this country, and I told him, with that cold lump of fear in my stomach, that it would take us decades to undo the damage he would do. I didn't know what form that damage would take, just that it was all but inevitable.
Anyone who is interested in the inside story, what it was like from the perspective of a fan of the democratic system, please read "Here, Right Matters," by Alexander Vindman. It's harrowing, told in spare prose that makes it all the more obvious how horrifying the former president was. "No impulse control" is a description I see a lot, but that barely scratches the surface, and that's when he wasn't yet fully in the grip of dementia.
I feel like this isn't being talked about enough. It is terrifying to have a presidential candidate refuse to disclose their position on abortion in this political climate.
And where is the concern for the unwanted children born of these laws? ?????
L&B&L
He must feel by crook or rook that voter intimidation and the RNC announcing they will fill election stations with people to look for fraud is going to work. These pretend polls that never expose how many were contacted, demographics, the poll conducted by whom, how the questions are phrased and give results like CBS unleashed last Friday saying he was ahead in swing states is another layer in the process. The public hears this crapola and it has an effect.
MSM media is part of the problem.
How many people subscribe to Time online and by deivery?
So far Heather Cox Richardson and Judd have covered this story that I have seen.(Judd &Co have the better facts. HCR bigger scare factor) Out of 166 million voters in 2020 and scads of millions who did not vote. How many is the Time story hitting?
The Trump trial and college protests are the biggies on video media.
Another good informative article that needs a wider audience. I am heading to XTwitter to retweet. Suggest all on different platforms do the same. Judd is big on Threads, fyi.
This movement to control all aspects of women's lives is being fostered by a relatively small group of mentally delusional people who believe that they alone know all answers to all questions. Although ludicrous on its face, it is possible for this absurd philosophy to prevail unless it is challenged directly and put down by Congress. Hitler was laughed at initially but wasn't put down until it was too late. The fact that something is fascist and hateful does not mean that it can't take hold among misogynists and power mongers.