My take exactly! Comments are saying Vence was polished and poised are partially correct, except for the fact that he gave polished LIES in a poised manner.
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I agree with your analysis. The lack of real time fact checking allows both sides to lie and Vance, in particular, took advantage of this, even calling out the moderators for checking his facts like that was a bad thing. If any low information voters were watching/listening, I doubt they would get much useful information from a debate like this except for an impression that Vance is a smooth operator and Walz was nervous.
The problem with the absence of fact checking isn't just the disinformation, being peddled, it allows the purveyor of the lie to bully and ingratiate himself to the MAGA thugs.
Peter, Walz is my Governor and his expressions went far beyond nervousness. I have never seen him look so angry; I thought his head would explode. If looks could kill….(I wish they could!). I’m sure his answers would have been better if he hadn’t been so incensed by Vance’s lies.
I wish he would have responded to the executing babies jab. The truth. Some babies are born who are known in advance to have only minutes or hours to live. The doctors don’t “execute” them. But they decide not to offer full lifesaving intervention, as it is hopeless. That’s the origin of the story (often repeated by TFFG) of the child being born and “the doctors deciding what to do about the baby.”
Our daughter had anencephaly (no brain development). We only found out a week before she was born (35 years ago). She was not given supports to stay alive. She died 10 hours later surrounded by her extended family. She was buried, has a plaque, and is visited on the anniversary of her birthday. She was not aborted, executed, killed. There were no charges for Murder.
This is the lie that the Trump MAGA’s are trotting out.
This is the level the current Republican Party has descended to.
God bless your family and your precious daughter, and thank you for your clear-eyed telling of this painful event. I fear that in today's world your story would have become much more complicated.
I was astonished by a statement Vance made which wasn’t challenged sufficiently by Walz, that we should be guided by Trump’s “common sense” and ignore science and “experts.” So we make Trump a “king” in all areas of knowledge. Insane.
Exactly. There is nothing... nothing... "common" or rational about Trump's "sense." To disregard science and experts and make your own stuff up is unconscionable.
He repeatedly tried to sell Trump as the only one with the truth (Messiah complex much) and scientists and other experts are not to be trusted. As usual, amid the flood of lies such things almost escape notice.
Vance is an Uber-slick version of Trump and much smarter. That makes him very dangerous. Win or lose, Vance will be back, pushing his Christian nationalist agenda with well packaged lies.
To amplify just a little, Trump has no ideology beyond personal enrichment, avoiding prison and celebrity.
In addition to the skills noted above, Vance, like many wealthy tech-bros has an ideological agenda with a strong “masters of the universe” vibe. They believe themselves to be superior and do not want to be hampered by quaint notions like individual rights, social responsibility, voting….. Among my major concerns if Trump wins is that he will delegate policy direction to Vance, Stephen Miller et al and go play golf. Trump really only wants the title, not the job.
Yes, this. I think this is exactly what Vance's (handler billionaire Peter Theil) plans to do. If Trump becomes a dictator on day one, and America becomes an authoritarian regime, what's to stop Vance from taking over from Trump? Absolutely nothing. Trump is the distraction.
GhostoftheWhiteRose, I am certain trump is too dumb to realize that if he becomes president; he will only be an impediment to the more intelligent, crafty Vance becoming President. President Kennedy was assassinated because he wanted to end the Viet Nam War. His replacement LBJ went headlong into the war the CIA and military-industrial-complex wanted. Trump is too dumb to understand that this could happen to him.
Vance is a slicker, younger, inexperienced version of trump. He spouts what he is told and 99% of it is utter bullshit but his delivery isn’t the Rottweilerian suckness that orange shitstain has when his buttons are pushed. He tries to mimic Walz’s folksy delivery with fake stories about his concocted background about how he grew up as a poor black child. Basically he’s a good bullshitter, apparently a republicon requirement for admission to the club. He is about as phony as he can be shape shifting from religious zealot to sensible yalie at the flick of a switch and he is only rivaled in lying by his running mate. He is a fake plastic robot that serves donnies shit on a fancy plate and will lay down to do donnies bidding when told to do so. Peter Thiel built this frankenstein and should be held reponsible for his existence.
Which will no doubt come shortly after he’s elected. Trump has the following but is too old, too erratic and too volatile to be there for long. Vance is young, polished (yalie elitist) and such a huge investment for Peter Thiel. He also regurgitates everything he’s told to say verbatim and doesnt need to think but toe the party line.
CBC (Canadian) radio news had a phone interview yesterday, the 1st, with a Yale classmate of Vance's who used to be a good friend when he supposedly had some honesty and kindness. She was terrific. But it's not you and I who need to hear her. Can't remember which slot, but one can probably google it at cbc.ca
Good ending for Walz. Minnesota nice missed many opportunities. Vance's ability to lie with such confidence is breathtaking and dangerous. Hopefully moves the needle for some.
Vance was smooth and confident and lied with impunity. He is skilled at debate. The lack of fact checking was egregious. He seems to lack understanding of government and the role of the VP vs President. Walz was too nice and solicitous - he should have stated truths after each lie.
I ended up turning it off because I couldn’t stand listening to Vance: what a hypocrite. Period. He is a great example of why people “hate” politicians. So he can smoothly lie—big whoop. If I could have just listened to Walz, I wouldn’t have turned it off.
Walz family is staying in the <well-guarded> former home of University of Minnesota presidents, on the road that runs beside the Mississippi River. I drive by often and smile every time. I love my Gov!
I respectfully disagree with you, Mr. Legum. Vance did not stay on topic and did not ahow empathy towards anyone. He avoided answering questions by inserting other subjects onto his responses and he did not acknowledge the truth during the very few times Walz "confronted " him. Vance is still, and will always be, an ambitious and cruel monster. He is more than ready to take over as second-in-command, if Trump gets away with it. Please do not normalize Vance, just because he shook hands and smiled at his overly nice and solicitous rival.
Vance convincingly lied a lot (why even have a debate without allowed fact checking?). Walz was a much nicer guy than he should have been and the two agreed a surprising amount. Walz didn't go in for the kill (i.e. January 6th and Vance not saying Trump lost). Much of swing state North Carolina couldn't watch because of power outages.
Not that it matters: nobody will remember anything in 48 hours.
Walz was a nice guy. Trance was slippery and couldn’t tell the truth about anything and then bristled when fact checked ONE time, because it was “against the rules”.
I’m concerned that low-info voters will have seen Vance’s slickness and equated it with excellence. Vance is a talented speaker, but for those of us who know where they both stand, he was a conniving, supercilious, pompous liar; he’s the Ivy League equivalent of his running mate. Trump is so unhealthy and completely unhinged—if he drops dead after winning the election (please god, no! And I’m an atheist), then Vance is in the power seat. That’s a thoroughly frightening prospect; with his ability to sound smart, he can get away with almost anything. It’s very scary.
It threw me off at first; Vance playing so well the earnest young man, while Walz' facial and body language seemed that he was flummoxed. This might be the way Vance entreats his computer magnates of the dark enlightenment corporate feudalism. Walz recovered, and used his "I'm just a Midwesterner" shtick to his advantage as Vance skated around the edge. i think all watchers could tell the forced civility was an act. (For the record: with the exception of a few months in New England, I am also a life-long-76 years-Midwesterner.)
Vance is slick. He patterned his debate look after Kamala in Sept. Those side eye looks to the camera when Wolz spoke is primary as well as being raised lower middle class in Appalachia. Which is debatable in itself. Wolz picked up speed as the debate progressed. His remark about Pence not being at the other podium needs to be quoted often just to remind people how Trump would've hung him.
Clearly a VP doesn't lead an Administration as the Republican talking point suggested over and over ad nauseum.
But America sees what it wants. The hatred of immigrants is putrid and has been exploited by the GOP. Low birth rates here in our country are going bite the haters in the butt 20 years from now and even in Springfield OH those Haitians are providing a needed workforce today. Don't count on the MSM giving Wolz a break today. 1% owners will make that certain. The fact check shows Vance lied aplenty. No one will see it on TV I fear.
Otherwise, I was disappointed they were so nice. Wolz did well enough, but Vance improved his persona even if he isn't really like that. Chameleon man for sure.
Hazel, some 20 years I was volunteering to resettle refugees from the wars in the Balkans. I have a few speeches to encourage congregations to sponsor refugees, too. I found that the population decline was happening even then and used that in my talks. As an example, NY would have seen a decline of 900,000 IF NOT FOR IMMIGRATION. It’s already happening.
I don’t know if a fascist Trump Administration would really deport millions from the US (likely not - but anything is possible with that MF). But I can well imagine the chaos that would ensue. Not a roof would be repaired, grocery produce aisles would look like Russian markets circa 1990, and you’d have to clean your own hotel room and make your own bed.
And professional losses would also be profound. There are medical recruiters going to Ethiopia to sponsor nurses to come to the US. And those nurses are among the most compassionate and hardworking I’ve ever seen. Without them your grandmothers would be neglected in understaffed nursing homes.
Yes, a chameleon. I think his assignment was to not act weird. It makes the lies go down better. JD was born and raised in Ohio. Appalachian roots of his family are just a political tool for him.
Walz was the dad taking you to buy your first car.
Vance was the slimy salesman trying to sell you a lemon.
I thought Vance was SMARMY - maybe a snake-oil salesman. Smile and nod and take your money (vote) before you know what he is really selling!
My take exactly! Comments are saying Vence was polished and poised are partially correct, except for the fact that he gave polished LIES in a poised manner.
Bingo: "poised" is it.
The problem is that 90% of voters don’t read political article, so they don’t know that Vance is lying
I know.....
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery so I hope you don't mind if I pass around /use your spot on metaphor going forward!
Blue RootsRadio - exactly! Perfect!
Bluerootsradio - May I repost your analogy? (With or without attribution?)😊
That is the best comparison of them I have seen yet.
Apologies for anyone having trouble leaving a comment. We am working to resolve now. Feel free to email your thoughts to judd@popular.info if it’s not working for you.
I agree with your analysis. The lack of real time fact checking allows both sides to lie and Vance, in particular, took advantage of this, even calling out the moderators for checking his facts like that was a bad thing. If any low information voters were watching/listening, I doubt they would get much useful information from a debate like this except for an impression that Vance is a smooth operator and Walz was nervous.
The problem with the absence of fact checking isn't just the disinformation, being peddled, it allows the purveyor of the lie to bully and ingratiate himself to the MAGA thugs.
Peter, Walz is my Governor and his expressions went far beyond nervousness. I have never seen him look so angry; I thought his head would explode. If looks could kill….(I wish they could!). I’m sure his answers would have been better if he hadn’t been so incensed by Vance’s lies.
I wish he would have responded to the executing babies jab. The truth. Some babies are born who are known in advance to have only minutes or hours to live. The doctors don’t “execute” them. But they decide not to offer full lifesaving intervention, as it is hopeless. That’s the origin of the story (often repeated by TFFG) of the child being born and “the doctors deciding what to do about the baby.”
Our daughter had anencephaly (no brain development). We only found out a week before she was born (35 years ago). She was not given supports to stay alive. She died 10 hours later surrounded by her extended family. She was buried, has a plaque, and is visited on the anniversary of her birthday. She was not aborted, executed, killed. There were no charges for Murder.
This is the lie that the Trump MAGA’s are trotting out.
This is the level the current Republican Party has descended to.
God bless your family and your precious daughter, and thank you for your clear-eyed telling of this painful event. I fear that in today's world your story would have become much more complicated.
I was astonished by a statement Vance made which wasn’t challenged sufficiently by Walz, that we should be guided by Trump’s “common sense” and ignore science and “experts.” So we make Trump a “king” in all areas of knowledge. Insane.
Exactly. There is nothing... nothing... "common" or rational about Trump's "sense." To disregard science and experts and make your own stuff up is unconscionable.
He repeatedly tried to sell Trump as the only one with the truth (Messiah complex much) and scientists and other experts are not to be trusted. As usual, amid the flood of lies such things almost escape notice.
Yes!
Terrifying
Vance is an Uber-slick version of Trump and much smarter. That makes him very dangerous. Win or lose, Vance will be back, pushing his Christian nationalist agenda with well packaged lies.
To amplify just a little, Trump has no ideology beyond personal enrichment, avoiding prison and celebrity.
In addition to the skills noted above, Vance, like many wealthy tech-bros has an ideological agenda with a strong “masters of the universe” vibe. They believe themselves to be superior and do not want to be hampered by quaint notions like individual rights, social responsibility, voting….. Among my major concerns if Trump wins is that he will delegate policy direction to Vance, Stephen Miller et al and go play golf. Trump really only wants the title, not the job.
This is my nightmare scenario: 🍊🤡 wins and lets his henchmen run everything. 🛋️ 🍆 becomes de facto president
Yes, this. I think this is exactly what Vance's (handler billionaire Peter Theil) plans to do. If Trump becomes a dictator on day one, and America becomes an authoritarian regime, what's to stop Vance from taking over from Trump? Absolutely nothing. Trump is the distraction.
GhostoftheWhiteRose, I am certain trump is too dumb to realize that if he becomes president; he will only be an impediment to the more intelligent, crafty Vance becoming President. President Kennedy was assassinated because he wanted to end the Viet Nam War. His replacement LBJ went headlong into the war the CIA and military-industrial-complex wanted. Trump is too dumb to understand that this could happen to him.
Eric and Donald Jr have their eyes on succession
Walter - very well-said and my belief 100%. Trump only wants the power to punish, the access to graft, and freedom from prison.
Yes, and if they win, the odds are high Vance will end up taking the helm. That is terrifying.
Vance was good, slick and slippery at avoiding questions. He repeated convincing lies, and clearly is Trumps " boy ". Proving he can't be trusted.
Vance is a slicker, younger, inexperienced version of trump. He spouts what he is told and 99% of it is utter bullshit but his delivery isn’t the Rottweilerian suckness that orange shitstain has when his buttons are pushed. He tries to mimic Walz’s folksy delivery with fake stories about his concocted background about how he grew up as a poor black child. Basically he’s a good bullshitter, apparently a republicon requirement for admission to the club. He is about as phony as he can be shape shifting from religious zealot to sensible yalie at the flick of a switch and he is only rivaled in lying by his running mate. He is a fake plastic robot that serves donnies shit on a fancy plate and will lay down to do donnies bidding when told to do so. Peter Thiel built this frankenstein and should be held reponsible for his existence.
Vance is scarier than Trump because if Trump is elected, Vance has a huge chance of becoming president via Trump’s assassination or natural death.
Which will no doubt come shortly after he’s elected. Trump has the following but is too old, too erratic and too volatile to be there for long. Vance is young, polished (yalie elitist) and such a huge investment for Peter Thiel. He also regurgitates everything he’s told to say verbatim and doesnt need to think but toe the party line.
Totally agree. I don't see Trump lasting past six months before he's replaced by Vance
mth, see my reply to GhostoftheWhiteRose above.
I would love to hear secrets from former classmates.
CBC (Canadian) radio news had a phone interview yesterday, the 1st, with a Yale classmate of Vance's who used to be a good friend when he supposedly had some honesty and kindness. She was terrific. But it's not you and I who need to hear her. Can't remember which slot, but one can probably google it at cbc.ca
Good ending for Walz. Minnesota nice missed many opportunities. Vance's ability to lie with such confidence is breathtaking and dangerous. Hopefully moves the needle for some.
Vance was smooth and confident and lied with impunity. He is skilled at debate. The lack of fact checking was egregious. He seems to lack understanding of government and the role of the VP vs President. Walz was too nice and solicitous - he should have stated truths after each lie.
I ended up turning it off because I couldn’t stand listening to Vance: what a hypocrite. Period. He is a great example of why people “hate” politicians. So he can smoothly lie—big whoop. If I could have just listened to Walz, I wouldn’t have turned it off.
Mrs Tippit I had to turn it off too! But I would listen to Walz for hours!
I'd love to live in the same neighborhood as Tim Walz! Kamala Harris too. I regret having to live on the same planet as Vance and Trump.
Walz family is staying in the <well-guarded> former home of University of Minnesota presidents, on the road that runs beside the Mississippi River. I drive by often and smile every time. I love my Gov!
Same - couldn't listen to Vance.
I respectfully disagree with you, Mr. Legum. Vance did not stay on topic and did not ahow empathy towards anyone. He avoided answering questions by inserting other subjects onto his responses and he did not acknowledge the truth during the very few times Walz "confronted " him. Vance is still, and will always be, an ambitious and cruel monster. He is more than ready to take over as second-in-command, if Trump gets away with it. Please do not normalize Vance, just because he shook hands and smiled at his overly nice and solicitous rival.
Every time Vance started his replies with “First of all..” I turned to my friend and said “That means he’s not going to answer the question.”
Waltz missed several opportunities to reveal Vance’s lies. The few times he dis were good, but he does not have the “prosecutor” instinct of Harris
Vance convincingly lied a lot (why even have a debate without allowed fact checking?). Walz was a much nicer guy than he should have been and the two agreed a surprising amount. Walz didn't go in for the kill (i.e. January 6th and Vance not saying Trump lost). Much of swing state North Carolina couldn't watch because of power outages.
Not that it matters: nobody will remember anything in 48 hours.
My question: where was Vance's eye-liner?
I noted the almost-natural eyeliner, which I believe he refreshed during the break.
I’ve never seen Walz look so angry - and I think that detracted from his usual snappy repartee.
The Trump campaign insisted on no fact checking by CBS. I believe they would have canceled without this agreement
Walz was a nice guy. Trance was slippery and couldn’t tell the truth about anything and then bristled when fact checked ONE time, because it was “against the rules”.
I’m concerned that low-info voters will have seen Vance’s slickness and equated it with excellence. Vance is a talented speaker, but for those of us who know where they both stand, he was a conniving, supercilious, pompous liar; he’s the Ivy League equivalent of his running mate. Trump is so unhealthy and completely unhinged—if he drops dead after winning the election (please god, no! And I’m an atheist), then Vance is in the power seat. That’s a thoroughly frightening prospect; with his ability to sound smart, he can get away with almost anything. It’s very scary.
It threw me off at first; Vance playing so well the earnest young man, while Walz' facial and body language seemed that he was flummoxed. This might be the way Vance entreats his computer magnates of the dark enlightenment corporate feudalism. Walz recovered, and used his "I'm just a Midwesterner" shtick to his advantage as Vance skated around the edge. i think all watchers could tell the forced civility was an act. (For the record: with the exception of a few months in New England, I am also a life-long-76 years-Midwesterner.)
Vance is slick. He patterned his debate look after Kamala in Sept. Those side eye looks to the camera when Wolz spoke is primary as well as being raised lower middle class in Appalachia. Which is debatable in itself. Wolz picked up speed as the debate progressed. His remark about Pence not being at the other podium needs to be quoted often just to remind people how Trump would've hung him.
Clearly a VP doesn't lead an Administration as the Republican talking point suggested over and over ad nauseum.
But America sees what it wants. The hatred of immigrants is putrid and has been exploited by the GOP. Low birth rates here in our country are going bite the haters in the butt 20 years from now and even in Springfield OH those Haitians are providing a needed workforce today. Don't count on the MSM giving Wolz a break today. 1% owners will make that certain. The fact check shows Vance lied aplenty. No one will see it on TV I fear.
Otherwise, I was disappointed they were so nice. Wolz did well enough, but Vance improved his persona even if he isn't really like that. Chameleon man for sure.
Hazel, some 20 years I was volunteering to resettle refugees from the wars in the Balkans. I have a few speeches to encourage congregations to sponsor refugees, too. I found that the population decline was happening even then and used that in my talks. As an example, NY would have seen a decline of 900,000 IF NOT FOR IMMIGRATION. It’s already happening.
I don’t know if a fascist Trump Administration would really deport millions from the US (likely not - but anything is possible with that MF). But I can well imagine the chaos that would ensue. Not a roof would be repaired, grocery produce aisles would look like Russian markets circa 1990, and you’d have to clean your own hotel room and make your own bed.
And professional losses would also be profound. There are medical recruiters going to Ethiopia to sponsor nurses to come to the US. And those nurses are among the most compassionate and hardworking I’ve ever seen. Without them your grandmothers would be neglected in understaffed nursing homes.
Yes, a chameleon. I think his assignment was to not act weird. It makes the lies go down better. JD was born and raised in Ohio. Appalachian roots of his family are just a political tool for him.